And I have used several coats of non-dewaxed shellac under the poly just to get to the right shade on some pieces. At this point the shellac is watertight and no grain will rise (I actually never have used only the seal-coat but after sanding it it is not always totally water-tight so the grain might rise). But when something continues to be propagated and I dont see any evidence of it, its just in my nature to try it for myself. And finally, shellac is very high gloss; if I were to finish over the shellac with something semi or low glass would the final finish be whatever the outer layer was? It didnt cure and the color was at least 10 shades darker than it appeared on the can. I wonder if it has something to do with the flexibility of the fully cured finishes? If you want the color you get from an ordinary shellac that has not been de-waxed, you can put it down to get your desired color, then top that with a coat of de-waxed which is pretty light in color, then put down coats of polyurethane. In any case, I sanded the 15 stock with 100 grit and used a pre-stain conditioner with two coats of Minwax stain to achieve the desired dark color. hey Chad. In which case, random tests would not be conclusive. It is important to give the shellac some byte before applying any oil-varnish, so sand the final shellac coat to dull it up. With a good shellac base, one or two coats of varnish are usually sufficient unless youre after a piano finish. Just watched your video Shellac under poly. The poly peeled like crazy. Did I mention how LONG it takes me to finish a project? That was awesome. Thanks Marc for this! But using a good quality marine varnish as a top coat should help. I have finished and refinished for some 40 years. I am. Theres a very big difference between, Dont do this because it wont work. and Dont do this because we havent tested it. In my ignorance of this myth(?) This happened to me with tables that had sat for several weeks. Keep them coming. As for more videos on finishing, try the Finish category in the archive. chart at bottom of article, extension.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/hi_28.pdf. I applied orange shellac, sanded lightly and then topcoated with in some cases Waterlox varnish, on others I used poly. I let the tape work its way onto the surface for 3 summer days and when I pulled it, nothing came up. Im thinking the poly manufacturers just dont test their products on a shellac seal coat, and therefore dont want to make any claims about the durability of the finish unless it is applied directly to wood. As to how much in any given sample, all bets are off. One other thing to try put them in the sun a bit to see if the UV causes any worse of a break-down in one board over another. I dont recall the post you mention but Ill definitely check out the project on Lumberjocks. Hey Lynn. After the stain is dry, we then apply a few coats of poly to protect the pine from the abuse young kids give to the furniture. Thanks a bunch :). It is durable, non-yellowing and imparts a warm glow to all wood surfaces. and I have a 100% success rate in my finish thus far. Hi Everyone! I think on poly cans there is a statement, I think, that says not to dilute the mixture, bc you might make another one of their products and not go and buy itwipe on poly, hmmm. It would be pretty interesting to see if the poly lifted by itself leaving behind some shellac. We just accept them as fact. However, there are millions of products and services on the web, and I only promote those products or services that I would use personally. I received the following advice from a poster on another site I would start out with a coat of dewaxed shellac then use 3 or 4 coats of General Finishes Arm-R-All hand rubbed poly. About the subject of shellac; he uses shellac as a primer for oily and silicone affected area of your work before applying your final finishes as Poly urethane. There are just too many variables at play to answer this question with any real degree of certainty. When I put the shellac on, i almost immediately got hazy/cloudy streaks. The stain still needs to absorb into the wood to some degree. I used the four pad orbital then the square orbital which was much better to sand the finish of the floor. LOL, never leave a project unfinished. neither lifted even one square. Maybe you can direct me to more videos about finishing. :), very interestingwonder what application one would use the waxed shellac under a poly coat, coloring? follow up with spar urethane with uv protection. You didnt mention how long the drying times were? Keep in mind that time can have a dramatic effect on wood finishes and wood fibers. so i get a lot of sun and a lot of humidity, I am thinking of using de-waxed Shellac (a couple of coats with sanding in between) and a top coat of Polyurethane with a dash of some dye to add some color to it. So I would simply try the shellac and see how close it gets. That will give folks the opportunity to help you in a more efficient conversational way. First let me say I have enjoyed your insight into this topic going back to early one showing how to warm water-based finishes. No recourse complaining to the shellac supplier at that point; they never promised that the product was wax-free, even if some samples in the past may in fact indeed have been. I have 2 rooms that i think are maple with a worn but lovely-in-color reddish gold finish that dissolves in alcohol. This site uses affiliate links. What would make me decide to use shallac first and them poly? Other uncategorized cookies are those that are being analyzed and have not been classified into a category as yet. Thanks Marc! Then one day they use a sample where the rains that season were unusually high (or low), or the temperatures were off, or it was a collected from a village that hadnt been used before, or whatever, and bam!, they have a finishing disaster on an expensive piece. And until I see evidence of finish failure, I stand by my comments.. Nice retort Marc, some people just gotta pick you apart. Two coats. Required fields are marked *. I posted a link to my blog for my Before pictures. I made a coffee table about 3 years ago. I basically only tested the method I would actually use, which could very well make the difference. Good idea to get everyone thinking about their finishing process. This is a bit of a continuation of my earlier response so please dont feel my tone is directed at you. No color, blotchy, uneven. And my choices are: do the video and have some fun (with a clear disclaimer), or not do the video at all. Can I still put a polyurathane on top. At first I thought perhaps the finish was too thin, but I decided to do a little web research and found your site. What was that line in the song ahhShe (he) blinded me with sciencescience!. One of the beauties of shellac is that its not too difficult to reverse. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); The Wood Whisperer is proudly sponsored by brands that Marc trusts. I know the molding in my parents home was cypress in some rooms and some were American chestnut now extinct. If the shellac is cut with enough wax, the poly will not bond to it. Thanks Big D! Thanks! These cookies help provide information on metrics the number of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source, etc. Test. Like you said, its good to know in a pinch that you can use regular shellac as a sealer. I have a project at home that I wanted to put some poly on over a shellac and oil base finished and was putting off until I read these tests. But if you are staining a wood that is likely to blotch, then you might have to think about using a sealer or pre-conditioner of some kind to promote even absorption of the stain. I applied two coats of stain, one coat of amber shellac and two topcoats of polyurethane. Given this, please assume that any links leading you to products or services are affiliate links that we will receive compensation from. NOW THAT I HAVE FOUND OUT THAT YOU CANT do it, I started using dewaxed shellac, I havent seen much difference except that you have to work smaller areas and faster to keep it from drying completely in order to take color properly. (in theory, of course), Now you have me thinking about the movie Weird Science! This is a bit lengthy so please bear with me. They look like someone stained them, then put shellac or polyurethane around around area rugs. When a hardwood floor is waxed, theres a significant buildup of pure wax on top. Drying time? Actually you have that a big backwards Thiel. :-). The look didnt match the effort. And under those conditions, I saw no immediate failure. months?? as a novice the whole shellac idea is confusing. Internet searches are making my head spin! Copyright 2006-2022 The Wood Whisperer Inc. Would that be good in my kind of weather?. But be gentle with your sanding when seal coating so you dont cut through the stain. Seeing that there was no going back I just went ahead and put the poly on top and hoped for the best. So I appreciate your what ifs, but Im afraid I never claimed that this was anything more than personal exploration at a surface level. We use cookies on our website to give you the most relevant experience by remembering your preferences and repeat visits. So thats why I use a very light coat of shellac. Have done any videos on blending pine boards to match old to new ? Nice post Mark, I used shellac as a sanding sealer or grain sealer under poly for many years, and never had any problems. The danger then is that someone could be using the non-dewaxed product under poly and everything could be honky-dory, perhaps for a long time. The second would be to help prevent blotching. Mark, did you mix the waxed shellac well? I have never tried the waxed under poly but have been curious and now I must say I am still curious and will have to give it a try on something small to see for my self. Thanks again!~, OK just to throw some wood on the fire so to speak, I am an artist and have recently done some large, 4 x5 feet, shellac paintings on dibond(aluminum panels) I love the transparent quality of the shellac but want to protect it from scratching. 1. Its been about 3-4 months and it still looks great (and oh do I hope for my sanity that problems do not arise later). Hard to say. So I guess you werent paying attention to the part where I said this doesnt really prove anything and this was by no means a true scientific test. So now I focus on something else to apply my energy. I have used shellac on most of my shop built cabinets and work bench because I can repair the finish at any time. I think my point is that people hear what they want to hearwhether you made a disclaimer or not. Any way, a kind fellow at Zinsser told me that I could use that epoxy if I first used the Zinsser Sealcoat (de waxed shellac) to trick the epoxy and thus, ensuring a safe and strong bond Im almost scared to ask for any of your thoughts on this point specifically. The poly looked great. Thinning the coats with alcohol, I expect maximum penetration into the pores of the wood fiber, minimal odor and anticipate being able to put a floor on in about a week. After your test samples have fully cured, cut grid patterns into them with a knife, then cover with tape and peel up the film should not lift (much). Just sanded an old table to use as a desk. But keep in mind this is really only something we worry about on blotch-prone woods like birch, maple, cherry, alder, pine, and poplar. Have you ever done a video that was so long, you found yourself being influenced by yourself toward the end? I hope you keep this test always in the back of your mind and give us updates like on a annual basis. Never have issues with finish if the wood is raw though I have experienced the fogging that someone mentioned when I put shellac over some older pieces of furniture that have a lacquer based finish. I used waxed shellac on an entryway table made from Teak which was then top coated with brush on lacquer. Maybe someday I will be more comfortable with the finishing process. There are a lot of variablesthe main one being time. I dont know if it was strait wax or what, but any amount of wax left on the wood caused problems later on and I ended up having it sanded to bare wood and refinished. Thanks. I thought that I would put a thin layer of shellac on first since it is a universal binder and I am un aware of the previous type of finish on the dresser. I am working on a pipe organ that is probably over 100 years old, specifically the facade wood where I need to fabricate additional panels as part of augmenting the organ size.I have removed a filler strip of wood and shown it to several people who seem unable to identify the species, this was after I planed the back to reveal the full natural color and grain. Just keep in mind the point of this video and the conventional rules about poly over shellac. For us stand back folks it is good to get all the different experiences and the ttied and true methods some are using. By clicking Accept, you consent to the use of ALL the cookies. Enjoyed that short video and test thanks Marc. Good luck. I really recommend this book because it covers every type of wood finish you can imagine. Strip the shellac off the counters, and put whatever you want on top. Any ideas on what the original finish on the dresser was? And it is certainly more convenient. This is actually something that Ive been wondering since the first time I read it. HELP. Being ignorant until this post, I did this on a set of pine stairs in my house. Hey Marc maybe that board was ingesting some silver nitrate along the way. Shellac will redissolve to some extent when a new layer is applied on top. If you wax your hardwood floors, sand, and add a coat of poly, the poly will peel right off. Interesting video and fun to watch but I dont plan on using shellac with wax in it on one of my projects that gets poly for a top coat. But since I am just a guy in a garage, there is only so much I can do. Thankfully, I get replies on my older videos every day. Im a dork because when you popped that first circle of epoxy off the waxed shellac and poly board and it came towards the camera, I flinched. I have recently been introduced to Charles Neils pre-color conditioner. The manufacturer makes no representation as to its value. Marc, there is a simple industry test for film adhesion Scotch Tape Peel test. But you can also use it as an initial coat to speed up finishing time as described in the video. Looking forward to watching the video when I get home from work. Then try to lift them with tape as soon as you take the mug off. Thanks for taking the time to do it. That is the only claim that was made. Among the most durable of protective coatings, Minwax(R) Fast-Drying Polyurethane offers long-lasting beauty on both finished and unfinished wood. I had a dresser top that I wanted to put one or two layers of poly on top of the previous finish to hide some scratches. Love the podcast & videos. I cant properly comment on the good and bad like a lot of others can, based simply on my lack of experience with a lot of these finishes, but I really appreciate you diving into a lot of the problems/myths/truths about different finishes. Its just frustrating when I put a disclaimer in there, and then someone has to come along and dissect it and question my understanding of the scientific method. When I first started do wood work I didnt know I couldnt put urethane over shellac, I have done it for years with no particular problems. You know I have always wondered that myself. Yeah you can get dewaxed in the same amber, orange, garnet, and blonde. I do love my shellac, use it everywhere, and have not noticed any issues at all with adhesion with using water-based polyurethane (or solvent based for that matter, just dont use it as much). Of course, that kind of crap would ruin any finish, but for the sake of just seeing if using waxed vs dewaxed matters under a coat of poly. What can I do to get this cloudy mess gone? I had sealed the board with zinnser bullseye and top coated with Polly. Thanks. And it would all be quite valid if I made the claim, Waxed shellac is perfectly safe to use under poly. But I didnt. I originally wanted to refinish and oil them but didnt like the look of just tung oil so I added a stain / poly combo. As of yet, I havent found seal coat to be inferior to freshly mixed flake shellac. I have never had to correct a bad finish but I have it in my head that if I mess up the finish I will be spending hours and hours sanding and the finish will never come out looking good. Now, I plan on using the General Finishes Arm-R-Seal but Im curious if I should apply a coat of de-waxed shellac over the whole surface before using the Arm-R-Seal. Let me know if this is not a good idea. Is that true?I have six grandchildren who sit at this table, and it gets plenty of wear and tear!!! I live in southern California so, moisture not much of an issue. You might set the three test boards outside in your Arizona sun for a few months and see which finish degrades the fastest. Ive never used anything but de-waxed shellac under poly ever since that childhood memory was burnt into my 8 year old brain. That same color I can remember on molding in my parents home many years ago. A couple of layers poly. Yes absolutely! So by doing the video, I really hang everything on that disclaimer. Trusted by generations of woodworkers, shellac is a traditional, quick-drying finish that is ideal for antiques and fine furniture. Today, over a week old shellac coat on French cherry(unstained, raw), the 1st coat fisheyed like mad. It looks promising as it has a much longer shelf life than traditional French polish. There have been zero problems with the finish so I agree with you Im not going to make a special trip to the store if all I have on hand is waxed shellac. The cookies is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Necessary". He then had to pay a floor finisher to sand them down again. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Leave it out in the sun and see if it effects the adhesion test. Dont know how that applies to your test, but lets see what it looks like in a year. A coat of shellac will dry in about a half hour. I wanted to see if I could find any evidence of a weakened bond between polyurethane and waxed shellac, when the shellac is used in the typical manner as a sealer. Thinking out loud again ;-). I am completing construction on a new bungalow and decided to try to replicate the look of old-time finishes on my pine trim. Even the back of the shellac can itself says not to use polyurethane. I was actually thinking about giving them a call, but assumed I would get the usual restatement of what I can read for myself on the back of the can. Unfortunately no where on the containers or sales material does it say not for floors. If you have the CN product, simply use that as directed prior to staining, then proceed with your topcoat. No worries then. 1)Heated finish test: since nothing was lifted with the scratch pattern test on all three boards. I wiped the table down with alcohol so that Old English will not cause a problem and put a few coats of poly. This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. It looks as if I carefully sanded the top surface where names are that area would clean up and nothing gouged the wood or even seems like it went through what appears to be a very thick finishing coat or coats. Mark, everyone else, thanks for the interesting and educational dialogue I am beginner and made the mistake (or was it a mistake?) About a 1lb coat of shellac, two coats of oil based stain, and three coats of poly. Not to be one to learn quickly, I repeated the performance a few years later with the same results. I have used de-waxed shellac on all of my work and enjoy using it. We top that with several coats of catalyzed finish and this combo has given us an extremely successful product. It gets direct sun light about 6 months out of the year. I have a pine table I am building and want to control the blotching prior to staining and then apply polyurethane on top. To save money he was allowed to paint the interiors and finish the floors himself. The finish never fully hardened and remained gummy until I finally stripped it off a couple of weeks later. It sounds odd, but they really dont look bad at all. Is that an objective obdervational term? Your presention of wood finish was great. Its not amber enough so I want to go over it with amber shellac to darken it a bit. Now I have always taken the better safe than sorry route, simply avoiding regular waxed shellac. The original test was done many years ago. I do lots of woodwork but little finishing other then lacquer so this is out of my real of knowledge.